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Author Topic: A homage to jumping in cs 1.6  (Read 4903 times)
Rocketman
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Posts: 518
No tears now; only dreams
Big post incoming...

So I've been wanting to make this thread for a few weeks now and now that I finished finals I finally found the time and motivation to do so. Before you read any further I just want to mention that the following jumps in these videos are HARD to do... it literally takes years to get that good at airstrafing to be able to pull this stuff off. I suspect that most of you have not jumped at all in cs 1.6, so I just wanted to make that known. These videos are perhaps comparable to dellorts movies in terms of skill, for their respective time periods at least.

I started jumping/surfing/bhopping and all that jazz in cs 1.6 prolly about 6-7 years ago. I was a complete noob for a long time, and I was mostly interested in surfing, simply cuz I liked going fast. kzing otherwise known as climbing was never very interesting to me for that reason. I got into bhopping shortly after surfing, and likewise I was never very good for a long time. In fact, by the time I quit jumping in cs 1.6 around 4 years ago, I was merely a no-namer, though I did get close to breaking a few world records. But honestly I can only look back with nostalgia. The community was awesome and the servers I used to occupy often had top-level jumpers come in every so often. Everyone would go nuts if one of the top-level jumpers came in to the server, and at least half the team would spec them to see them in action.

So now I'm just going to explain how jumping worked in cs 1.6... Jumping in that game is all about air strafing. If you were a good air strafer, you could easily be a good kzer/bhopper/surfer/ljer. Before I continue on, you should familiarize yourself with some jumping terms, some that are actually pretty relevant to jumping in tf2 as well.

Longjump - As the name states, ljing is all about how far you can jump. The standard for measurement for ljing are in units (like as in the units used in mapmaking). It takes a shit ton of practice to get good at ljing.

Countjump - Similar to a lj, except right before you jump you hit duck (players do this perfectly by binding crouch to either mousewheel up or down. I guess I should also mention that it was fundamental to bind jump to mousewheel up or down as well.) Tapping duck in cs 1.6 will result in a mini jump almost. Your legs shoot up to your body and you get some airtime as a result. It's called a countjump after a guy named "count" who discovered the jump. Doing a countjump will result in a longer distance than a lj. I find it interesting how the same exact thing can be found in tf2 jumping in the form of ctapping.

Prestrafe - Right before a lj/cj you would have to prestrafe to get a farther distance. To prestrafe you have to walk in one direction parallel to the edge of a block then strafe into the edge of the block you were about to jump off. Someone discovered that doing this movement actually boosted your acceleration speed when you jump. You'll see what I mean in the videos. Every lj/cj involves prestrafing.

Bhopping - I assume your familiar with what bunny hopping is. But in cs 1.6 it works a bit differently. Basically every time you jump, the game mechanics slow you down when you land. This makes consecutive jumps impossible to do without slowing down unless you air strafe. This is much different from tf2 where you can just spam jump while doing no strafing and maintain the same speed. Being a good bhopper was all about how good your air strafing was.

Edgebugging - Known as when you fall from a height and land on an edge in a way so that you don't take any fall damage. It takes mostly luck to pull off, but you felt like a complete badass when you did it. It's very very similiar to jump_littleman's 3rd lvl on the 2nd red course. Skip to 7:45 of this vid to see it in action.
KZ-Scandinavia The Movie 2


Jump-bugging - Similar to edgebugging, but super hard to pull off. Just watch this vid if you want to learn more.
Counter-Strike: Jump-bug Guide Small | Large


KZ - Basically just climbing. The jumps are spread out in a way so that the goal is just to climb up to the top of the map. World records of kz maps usually involve bhopping some of the jumps so as to get a time boost.

Those are the terms I remember, though I'm probably forgetting something (I'm fairly certain the surfing community had a term for when you hold jump/crouch in water so as to maintain speed... I think it was "bobbing" but I can't remember). Now I'll just go over some of the top players that are relevant to me.

The legend himself: Bibo

So back when I started out there was this guy named Bibo who was in the surf clan of the server I used to play on (surf-cs.net, they're no longer around). Everyone looked up to him, and at this time, he was unknown in the kz/bhopping community. About a year later he also joined kzmonkeys, a top NA jumping clan, which also no longer exists. To join two top level clans in surfing and jumping had never been done before. This guy had absurdly god like air strafing. For a few years he became generally regarded as the best NA jumper as well as perhaps the only notable Canadian jumper.

It was big, big, big news when he broke the world record for the longjump:
Bibo - 255 longjump Small | Large

Air strafing is a strange skill in that in some people it simply clicks and they are beasts at it. Bibo was a great surfer, which is all about air strafing, so it's not hard to see how he became so good at kz/bhopping.

It was also big news when he broke the world record for bkz_goldhop by smashing zhady's longstanding time:
Bibo[1:35] Vs Zhady[1:37] on bkz_goldbhop Small | Large

Bkz_goldhop is basically the jump_adventure of cs 1.6 bunnyhop maps. It's quite honestly the most memorable jumping map of all time for me at least.

While I'm the subject zhady is a jumper from sweden who has broken the most world records of any other jumper, though currently he holds a mere 10 world records. It just goes to show how advanced the current jumping scene is in 1.6. Here's a pretty cool vid of his:
zhady - Controlling Speed


And here's bibo's video, which had me super hyped up at the time of release, for I looked up to Bibo as the best jumper in the scene (though in hindsight he probably wasn't... There were some insane European jumpers out there who I had never even heard of):
Bibo : Breaking Boundaries - Part 1 Small | Large


And after doing some digging around on youtube I found this relatively recent video of his sick airstrafe skills in action (believe me when I say that this stuff is extremely difficult to pull off):
High - Bibo


The pitiful NA scene

So for some reason or another, the Europeans have always dominated the NA scene in the jumping community. I have no idea why truth be told. Looking at the current leaderboards, http://xtreme-jumps.eu/demos.php, you'll notice there's a massive number of Europeans compared to North Americans. It's also worth mentioning how much the scene has developed since I quit. The big timers of my era such as zhady, ndr, and brian hold very few current world records if any. It seems that times are always getting refined and world records are constantly be broken. In fact... Looking at the leaderboards, there's pretty much no name that I recognize. The only notable NA player is some guy named pizza^.

The most well known American jumper, was a guy named brian, who I never saw in any of the servers I played at, and so I did not really hear all too much about him. But he was a beast nonetheless... He held the most world records at one point in time.
CS: Brian The Movie 3 - by FoF (kz movie 2010)


The lack of world records in tf2?

One thing I do not understand since starting jumping in tf2 around two months ago is the lack of emphasis placed on world records and speed runs in general. It seems like there is no competition, everyone is just jumping for fun (which is not necessarily bad, but it's going to lead to a dying off community in general. People need world records to maintain motivation). In the 1.6 community you weren't considered a good jumper unless you had a few world records under your name. If you look on the homepage of xtreme-jumps.eu, basically the hub for the cs 1.6 jumping community, you'll see that every week they release new demos of players breaking world records. xtreme-jumps.eu

Honestly, whenever I go into a jump server in tf2 I feel like it's completely pointless unless I'm being timed. Often times, the skillsrank plugin is broken, which is a huge disappointment truthfully, and other servers don't even have timers. I can't understand why the jump it server would remove beginner maps from the map cycle either. Even for the pro players, you can always refine times. In fact it's probably easier to refine times on shorter, easier courses if anything. I'm thinking in particular of eleven's speedrun on jump_kilo on the easy side. Skip to 3 mins, 12 seconds.
Screw Gravity! - A Team Fortress 2 Jump Movie by Dziobak

No doubt, if someone kept trying, that speedrun could be shattered by a several seconds.

The verdict

I'm not going to argue that jumping in cs 1.6 is better than in tf2 or vise versa. They are simply way too different to make that judgement. Jumping in cs 1.6 is all about air strafing whereas in tf2 it's all about timing. Though I just want to mention at how surprised I am to see how flourishing the jump community in 1.6 is, even after so many years. I also want to point out how developed and more skilled it has become in the years. It's hard to imagine that in a few years, if jumping in tf2 is still around, the current top players will be no-namers in terms of skill. But it will happen... unless jumping dies off in tf2. And that's why, to preserve jumping and ensure it to continue, there needs to be a greater emphasis placed on speedruns. The goal of jumping should not merely be completing a map (unless it's super duper hard), but to complete in the shortest amount of time possible.

I leave you with a speedrun of bkz_goldhop, the current world record, which was broken very recently. People are always striving for faster and faster times, to claim the title of being the best.
[WR] KeltA on bkz_goldbhop - by ndR





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Offline  Diddy
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Posts: 297
Never really understood the appeal of bhopping/long jumping, especially long jumping.  Long Jumping, to someone who really has never jumped in CS you don't really understand what's happening, and it makes it impossible for you to understand why that is so incredible compared to a jump with one less "unit" (is there a specific name for the measurement of longjumps?), because visibly there's a very insignificant difference. 

Bhopping is just kind of, eh, it all seems really similar and just overall I don't find it entertaining to watch.  I don't get that "WOW" factor that you get from watching DeFRaG/TF2.  With DeFRaG you can just marvel at the ridiculous speeds and precision that is required, TF2 you get really crazy cool looking stuff like crazy synchs or multiple person jumping.  Really, it seems like the big reasons that TF2 jumping is popular is because

1. Required for competitive
2. Dellort's videos/any Trick jumping video

There are no really fast impressive speedruns in most jump videos, it's all just really crazy single tricks.  People see that, and they're pretty much instantly impressed.  Sure most people will still be impressed by fast speedruns, but with single spectacular jumps you get more than just, "wow this guy is really good", it's more like "oh wow that was incredibly creative and flashy, a long with the fact that it requires incredible skill". 

Just seems that in CS you don't really have the super complex/creative jumps like TF2 does, it offers something different I guess.  Now I have seen CSS videos of interesting trickjump mechanics, like bouncing people with flashbangs (forget what they were called) and to me that was infinitely more interesting than just seeing this one guy do something really fast.

Although, I guess you could say that flashy stuff just pulls people in for a few hours mostly and it's up to the actual jumping side to decide if they stay, I can see what you're saying by how you need that competitive nature in order for it to stay afloat, it keeps people coming back, it's natural to want to be better at something, when there's no competition iit's hard to justify being good at something when there's no one to compare yourself to.

It's not like literally no one speedruns, there's still enough people who do it consistently enough to have really close and tough to beat times.

Also US is just horrible, we're shit at almost everything that isn't practically US exclusive.  Best players are Euros a lot of the time it seems.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 04:24:53 PM by DiddyKong FTW »


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some people just shouldnt be aloud to have internet accesss
   
Maggot
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I was a huge fan of surfing in CSS and after that I dabbled a little bit in jumping in 1.6. It's crazy how hard it is (I never was really good at it, ~245 unit jumps at best couldn't even perfom a countjump), but after I got some basics down I had a blast playing Hide'N Seek. That mod was really awesome.

I was so disappointed when I found out TF2 caps your speed after you jump to your class limit, but I guess its for the best.

Also, I'm really glad to have found out about rocket jumping aaand hello TF2jump.com community :)


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Offline  CrancK
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ehh... what?
Posts: 397
dude...
looked amazing  :o

mind blown, didn't know that shit was possible till now

though to be honoust... it is just due to insane airaccel (which is the fault of the engine most likely (dont take this as negative, im just a coder, so i think about those things, maybe i shouldnt even have mentioned it or stuff... blehhhhhhhhh?))

but looks sweet, maybe not so fun to practice though



as for speedruns in tf2jumping... ahwell, i still have no idea why my timer shuts down every  now and then (though i still suspect other plugins to be the cause), and while speedruns are ok in tf2, most maps really aren't made for it, and the amount of people actually willing to do the insane jumps upto a consistent level, thats needed to be able to speedrun it... are very few and far to be found

though hey, you're welcome to make some more speedrunnable maps ^^


edit: ohwait.. you made that glow map (oops.. ahwell... more maps still a good thing ^^)

edit2: also, diddy... did you watch some of those movies... cos damn theres some super complex/creative stuff there
« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 06:02:38 PM by CrancK »


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Rocketman
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Posts: 518
No tears now; only dreams
Yea I suspect if you haven't jumped in cs 1.6, you won't find these videos interesting, but trust me, they are sick good at what they do.

And yea it's just my opinion about speedrunning... It just feels so boring to play a jump map without a time to beat or something to strive for. Once you complete a map without being timed, it just feels empty.


edit:
looked amazing  :o

mind blown, didn't know that shit was possible till now

though to be honoust... it is just due to insane airaccel (which is the fault of the engine most likely (dont take this as negative, im just a coder, so i think about those things, maybe i shouldnt even have mentioned it or stuff... blehhhhhhhhh?))


Yea if you're referring to that bibo - high movie, he doesn't use standard settings. Air_accelerate 100 (which is what surf servers use) and super high fps. Something interesting that doesn't seem to happen in tf2 is that surfing in cs 1.6 is highly dependent on fps. The higher fps, the faster you would go, don't know why. It was kinda dumb, cuz when you were watching a surf movie or something you could never tell if someone did something amazing or they just had super high fps.

Never really understood the appeal of bhopping/long jumping, especially long jumping.  Long Jumping, to someone who really has never jumped in CS you don't really understand what's happening, and it makes it impossible for you to understand why that is so incredible compared to a jump with one less "unit" (is there a specific name for the measurement of longjumps?), because visibly there's a very insignificant difference. 

Yea I was never interested in ljing either, mostly cuz I sucked at it. It's rly hard to explain why it's appealing, but in general, it's one of the most regarded standards used to judge if someone is a good jumper or not.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 09:44:33 PM by Afterglow »


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Offline  sync
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Posts: 31
great writeup, I did a lot of jumping in CSS and only played 1.6 to dick around with friends on rats maps and stuff.

oh and in the bibo zhady comparison video, why is zhady using the usp? that should make him slower right?
   
Offline  MIKE`
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And yea it's just my opinion about speedrunning... It just feels so boring to play a jump map without a time to beat or something to strive for. Once you complete a map without being timed, it just feels empty.

This is what I've complained about for...quite a while now. It's why I continually come back for a month or so, then vanish for a few months. There's not much competition in jumping and beating a map 10 million times starts to get old. Part of it is the timer not functioning properly a lot of the time, but the biggest problem is I feel like most maps aren't very good for speedruns (due to maps generally being too long for speedruns, or too difficult to do consistently). There are also some timer related additions that could be made that'd help improve jumping in general imo (getting more fun out of a map beyond beating it a million times), but I'm not gonna write any paragraphs on that -- as I'm too lazy to write a book right now and I've spoken to quite a few people about it in the past.
   
Offline  Klanana
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I finally had time to read through that whole thing and in my opinion what the 1.6 community has done with jumping is really inspirational. I wish we could get the level of competition going in tf2 (though I think the timers on servers worldwide is pretty unique) but unfortunately you need programmers who are motivated to get these new plugins out there. Another thing along the line of timers - you said the eu scene is way bigger than the na scene and you would see amazing people you had never even heard of... thats one thing i really like about tf2jump - it has united both of those scenes for tf2jumping so (from a speedrun standpoint) we know who is the best or the fastest.

Also regarding the easy maps being removed from jump it - they were moved over to jujump it and (when the timers work) you can definitely do speed runs from there. I would be more than happy to put them back on jump it though if people want, so that servers offers ALL maps while jujump is just beginner.

I've been trying pretty much everything I can think of to stimulate this community for the past year and a half... from advertisements to nonstop reddit posts etc... and I have kind of hit the point where I feel like I don't know what else to do - our name is finally out there and people are recognizing it but i am out of ways to stimulate. If we could get more competition going (like 1.6 jump) this shit could go forever. TF2 jumping is beautiful and amazing... it deserves to live on.


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Jump iT - 64.74.97.15:27015 | JuJump iT - 74.91.113.66:27015 | Surf iT - 216.52.143.76:27015
Bball iT - 74.91.113.9:27015 | MGE iT - 74.91.122.39:27015
   
Rocketman
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Posts: 518
No tears now; only dreams
great writeup, I did a lot of jumping in CSS and only played 1.6 to dick around with friends on rats maps and stuff.

oh and in the bibo zhady comparison video, why is zhady using the usp? that should make him slower right?

No it's the same movement speed as a knife.

I can see how maps aren't compatible with speedrunning... I think it should be the easier maps that are better for speedrunning. Like I can foresee speedruns on the first stage of jump_adventure where you'd go nonstop start to finish. You can always shave off a few milliseconds on a course like that. But yea there are often one or two jumps that are just way too hard to pull off consistently...  last jump on jump_aridia I'm looking at you


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Online  QuBA
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I can see how maps aren't compatible with speedrunning... I think it should be the easier maps that are better for speedrunning. Like I can foresee speedruns on the first stage of jump_adventure where you'd go nonstop start to finish.
due to maps generally being too long for speedruns, or too difficult to do consistently

oO Maybe its just me but much prefer speedrunning really hard maps instead of stuff like adventure or beef...
   
Fly
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Posts: 75
2Tired2Pogo
some people have been talking for a while about making some more maps that are fun to speed run. i also really love speed running so i would love to see that happen. I will help make maps and stuff if i am needed, learning hammer is something i am willing to do if people will enjoy what i make. I hope we can get some maps going because i know a few people that are really interested in making maps with speed running as the main goal. Since not really any jump maps were made for speed running, i think it is harder for people to get into it.

also raiins new map comes with a map timer so that's pretty nice if u want to do local speedruns.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 09:12:47 PM by Grimace Hentai »
   
Rocketman
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Posts: 518
No tears now; only dreams

[/quote]
oO Maybe its just me but much prefer speedrunning really hard maps instead of stuff like adventure or beef...
[/quote]

I'm certainly not against speedrunning on hard maps... It's just that the shorter, easier maps are nice cuz you can have good flawless runs. People think that speedruns have to be flawless, but they don't. All that matters is the time. If you come in first, that's great, regardless of whether it's flawless or not. Although eventually someone is going to break your time if it's not good enough.

The really really hard kz maps actually did not have world records for years, but it's come to the point where people have practiced so much that they're able to complete a hard map in one runthrough (without checkpoints of course). When the cs jumpers want to break a WR they'll go into their own lan server and just keep trying runthroughs until they beat it. Rarely do they try and break world records on public servers, since they change maps too often.


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Offline  Raiin
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Part of it is the timer not functioning properly a lot of the time

If it worked consistently there would still be a limited amount of competition around because most people don't want to see that they took 10 minutes for 1 jump or they ask why the can't teleport or turn regen on. The few people I talk to about the timer often would prefer something like the surf timer, it automatically starts and cannot be dodged, of course you would clear the save and disable teleports but should also be able to turn it off as you would use !stoptimer. In the end i thought about using the surf timer that has worked consistently and use the global connectivity code that Cranck has already created. Won't be as simple as dropping a pile of code into the surf timer I know but a working timer is better than an unreliable timer and using templates should be easier.

I would be more than happy to put them back on jump it though if people want, so that servers offers ALL maps while jujump is just beginner.

If people are complaining the easy maps aren't on the server then they should probably be on the other server, if those maps come back both servers will cycle boring easy maps again
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 04:13:10 AM by Raiin »


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Offline  CrancK
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ehh... what?
Posts: 397
dude...
If it worked consistently there would still be a limited amount of competition around because most people don't want to see that they took 10 minutes for 1 jump or they ask why the can't teleport or turn regen on. The few people I talk to about the timer often would prefer something like the surf timer, it automatically starts and cannot be dodged, of course you would clear the save and disable teleports but should also be able to turn it off as you would use !stoptimer. In the end i thought about using the surf timer that has worked consistently and use the global connectivity code that Cranck has already created. Won't be as simple as dropping a pile of code into the surf timer I know but a working timer is better than an unreliable timer and using templates should be easier.

i'm happy to give source to anyone,

if anyone thinks he can fix/do stuff

(though once again... i still have no idea whats the problem with skillsrank.. cos no error = me not being able to pinpoint wtf is going wrong)

i could also redo the timer, but i dont think its worth it really, since it would either mean a redo of the system we have now, (in the hope itll work better this time) or i can make it with a new way and all, but then it would need a db reset which sucks... + i dont really have the time i used to have to code shit.. so... it would take ages till its done + my enthousiasm toward coding shit has gone away quite a bit.. so ye... that aswell


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Soldier
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Posts: 247
All the issues that people have talked about here have easy solutions, save a couple.

The 'beta' of CrancK's timer with mapside trigger timers worked just fine except that it would break if triggers would be activated during the wait time. Otherwise it was fine.

Complaining about the same 5 maps being overplayed is dumb. Easiest solution is setup a map rotation and NO nominate. Put the maps on 20 min (or whatever you want) timers and let it be.


The biggest issues are that

1. 99% of maps arn't designed with speedruns in mind. - there are a few things that mappers could do to make them more speedrun friendly if they want to (if they actually care about speedruns, most dont)

2. More new maps (doesn't really matter how long) - content is king, even if they arnt master pieces

3. For those that say they like speed running hard maps, grats if you can. You are the 1%. -- Speed running hard maps isnt even close to competative. Competition drives this aspect. Look at the challenge thread and see how that blew up at first. Its cause people were competing and it wasnt just the top 3 jumpers in the world.

Anyway there is tons more I could write about this but Im to lazy.

TL:DR Make more short easy-med diff maps, put mapside time triggers in them.... now do this 100x

-edit  CrancK you should make a final release of SR with the mapside trigger support :P
   
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