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Author Topic: Rules/Standards for Speedrunning and ideas for improvments  (Read 2205 times)
Offline  Burger
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In another topic in the videos section a speedrun of rj_rckteer was posted and prompted the question if it was a WR of the map. The video I think prompted a good debate over the state of speedrunning on jump maps. As of now it has been somewhat anything goes including any items that valve throws at us is valid for a run. There is also offline times that are basically, start timer on vegas the frame you fire your first rocket and then online times (most likely better since its always the same) where the timer is always the same for each player.


Timers:

As of now I think skillsrank is fine since it seems to work flawlessly. However ideally I think a timer with more open space (think new version of skillsrank lets mapper set these), a way to make offline times consistent, and (very optional) auto demo record.

Rules:

From what I can tell the rules now are just a free for all and somewhat of a mess, save for a few weapons (sticky jumper, caber, etc) everything is allowed. The main thing I'm getting at should vanilla be the standard of speedruns? especially for the soldier where we have the rocket jumper, gunboats and equalizer (I know such a small difference).

IMO it should be vanilla since it respects how the maps were intended, it adds the possibilities of health jumps, and most importantly mappers can choose if you have infinite health or not (it really only effects a handful of maps).

Lastly it might be nice to have demos to backup each WR run for proof and its just nice to have.

Database:

I feel the current database we have is very clunky. We have like 4 or 5 different modes (regen, no regen, bhop for each class, quad, etc) and most of them never even get used. I think conc and quad are fine since its like different classes, but others may just be needless.

Conclusion:

Jumping in tf2 has come a far way now and I think it still has room to grow. Making records more legit and with more standards I think could help create a stronger speed running community. Other games like kz, defrag or ksf surf have great systems for speed running. TF2 speed runs are likely fine how they are now but there is a lot it could improve on.

Well most of this is very much my opinion so don't take any of this as "the word". What are other jumpers/speedrunners thoughts on this? is it fine how everything is? could it be improved? (try to ignore whats in place now).

Think that covers everything, probably some horrible grammar in there  :) feel free to add to anything
   
Offline  CrancK
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ehh... what?
Posts: 397
dude...
some good ideas (as long as you'd allow original as being vanilla)

now get someone to make it ^^


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Offline  Burger
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ofc original  :)
   
Offline  QuBA
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Vanilla doesnt work cause of water triples and quints, so no that cant be the standard.

And except for rj_training no maps have jumps where limited health is actually part of the jump, so the "how maps were intended" thing doesnt apply either.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 05:32:51 PM by QuBA »
   
Rocketman
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No tears now; only dreams
Vanilla doesnt work cause of water triples and quints, so no that cant be the standard.

And except for rj_training no maps have jumps where limited health is actually part of the jump, so the "how maps were intended" thing doesnt apply either.

pagoda/tholos are examples of maps where health regen matters. There are a few others as well, including some demo maps. But yea you're right, some maps like facility (the quint) need hurtme.

As of now I think skillsrank is fine since it seems to work flawlessly.

Idk what would make you say that but imo it's EXTREMELY flawed. Allowing sticky jumper on maps, some weird point system that simply rewards the person who accumulates the most "decent" (top 10 as opposed to #1) speedruns, only available on servers (no offline), excluding portions of the world (atm players like momiko, onakin, torii, combustion, lambda, skeleton are all excluded unless they want to try with a ton of lag), cheatable times via hook and the wonderland lag glitch, throwing together demo/sol runs even though they should be separated, no proper WR list, etc etc. Hell as we speak the timers are still down on the iT servers from the steampipe update afaik.

We just need a completely new speedrun system or a complete overhaul of skillsrank imo, one that works offline and can be spread globally. It also must be cheat-proof, like accounting for host_timescale. And imo the only way to make it completely legit is to require demos otherwise there still may be cases of the wonderland lag glitch or some other new cheats, unless that's somehow detectable. Making it cheat-proof, making it global, and making it offline compatible are the three biggest things that need to be done imo. This would likely requires knowledge of modding and web developing. I'm currently learning web development (javascript and node.js) so it's possible I could work on a new online database, but it's going to be like a month at least before I think I can do it. Hell it'll be a nice programming project at least, if I can accumulate enough web dev knowledge to get there.


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Rocketeer
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the skybox is the limit
Vanilla doesnt work cause of water triples and quints, so no that cant be the standard.

And except for rj_training no maps have jumps where limited health is actually part of the jump, so the "how maps were intended" thing doesnt apply either.

pagoda/tholos are examples of maps where health regen matters. There are a few others as well, including some demo maps. But yea you're right, some maps like facility (the quint) need hurtme.

As of now I think skillsrank is fine since it seems to work flawlessly.

Idk what would make you say that but imo it's EXTREMELY flawed. Allowing sticky jumper on maps, some weird point system that simply rewards the person who accumulates the most "decent" (top 10 as opposed to #1) speedruns, only available on servers (no offline), excluding portions of the world (atm players like momiko, onakin, torii, combustion, lambda, skeleton are all excluded unless they want to try with a ton of lag), cheatable times via hook and the wonderland lag glitch, throwing together demo/sol runs even though they should be separated, no proper WR list, etc etc. Hell as we speak the timers are still down on the iT servers from the steampipe update afaik.

We just need a completely new speedrun system or a complete overhaul of skillsrank imo, one that works offline and can be spread globally. It also must be cheat-proof, like accounting for host_timescale. And imo the only way to make it completely legit is to require demos otherwise there still may be cases of the wonderland lag glitch or some other new cheats, unless that's somehow detectable. Making it cheat-proof, making it global, and making it offline compatible are the three biggest things that need to be done imo. This would likely requires knowledge of modding and web developing. I'm currently learning web development (javascript and node.js) so it's possible I could work on a new online database, but it's going to be like a month at least before I think I can do it. Hell it'll be a nice programming project at least, if I can accumulate enough web dev knowledge to get there.

I might be able to help build a front-end (more javascript/jquery and d3.js). I'm not very well-versed in back-end stuff though.
   
Offline  Burger
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Vanilla doesnt work cause of water triples and quints, so no that cant be the standard.

And except for rj_training no maps have jumps where limited health is actually part of the jump, so the "how maps were intended" thing doesnt apply either.

Thank you for bringing this up, meant to put this in here. For maps that require water triples and quint or in other words that need an item to survive these items would need to be allowed (they would be the exception, not the standard). Unless mappers can make a way to survive these idk.

And I did not mean specific jumps that utilize health as an element, rather maps like pagoda, tholos, rckteer, rckteer advance, or cheval just to name a few, which utilize managing your health in a run. Also for the future who knows when someone might want to use health as a factor in a single jump or make a map that routing depends on health. The rocket jumper being allowed for all takes away from this, mappers can make a map where health regenerates already (maybe if someone wants to get permission and edit other maps to have health or ammo regen that would be good).
   
Offline  X_DIAS
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The world is a cube
We want spy database!

and we i mean everyone else
   
Offline  Burger
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Vanilla doesnt work cause of water triples and quints, so no that cant be the standard.

And except for rj_training no maps have jumps where limited health is actually part of the jump, so the "how maps were intended" thing doesnt apply either.

pagoda/tholos are examples of maps where health regen matters. There are a few others as well, including some demo maps. But yea you're right, some maps like facility (the quint) need hurtme.

As of now I think skillsrank is fine since it seems to work flawlessly.

Idk what would make you say that but imo it's EXTREMELY flawed. Allowing sticky jumper on maps, some weird point system that simply rewards the person who accumulates the most "decent" (top 10 as opposed to #1) speedruns, only available on servers (no offline), excluding portions of the world (atm players like momiko, onakin, torii, combustion, lambda, skeleton are all excluded unless they want to try with a ton of lag), cheatable times via hook and the wonderland lag glitch, throwing together demo/sol runs even though they should be separated, no proper WR list, etc etc. Hell as we speak the timers are still down on the iT servers from the steampipe update afaik.

We just need a completely new speedrun system or a complete overhaul of skillsrank imo, one that works offline and can be spread globally. It also must be cheat-proof, like accounting for host_timescale. And imo the only way to make it completely legit is to require demos otherwise there still may be cases of the wonderland lag glitch or some other new cheats, unless that's somehow detectable. Making it cheat-proof, making it global, and making it offline compatible are the three biggest things that need to be done imo. This would likely requires knowledge of modding and web developing. I'm currently learning web development (javascript and node.js) so it's possible I could work on a new online database, but it's going to be like a month at least before I think I can do it. Hell it'll be a nice programming project at least, if I can accumulate enough web dev knowledge to get there.

Alright, flawlessly was a bit of a strong word, I was referring to how the timer its self works and it does its job of timing players starting and ending in the same place for everyone (remember before it would often not record times at all). And I suppose "skillsrank" is the timer while the database it uses are different (could be wrong on this). The database though it is flawed for sure and offline, global, and cheat proofing is the way to go for sure.

About excluding other regions I think punipuni (jp server) does support the database and jump it that's on them. (anyway hardly important it would be great to have it redone). And thanks for showing interest in creating something   :)
   
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how about we just take every map maker that has ever made a long hallway between jumps with no regen...and shoot them in the head for being so stupid and annoying?
   
Offline  QuBA
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Idk what would make you say that but imo it's EXTREMELY flawed.

Ok lets look at your points.

Allowing sticky jumper on maps

Agreed, this is a problem.

some weird point system that simply rewards the person who accumulates the most "decent" (top 10 as opposed to #1) speedruns,

That ranking algorithm isnt part of skillsrank.

only available on servers (no offline)

Its gonna be impossible to make a plugin or something that works offline.

excluding portions of the world (atm players like momiko, onakin, torii, combustion, lambda, skeleton are all excluded unless they want to try with a ton of lag)

Their fault for not installing skillsrank on their servers or not hooking them up to the tf2jump databse, has nothing to do with the plugin.

cheatable times via hook and the wonderland lag glitch

Hook is admin only, if you can trust the admins were already screwed. I dont see how any plugin could prevent server admins from cheating with the plethora of commands that could be used.

throwing tomgether deo/sol runs even though they should be separated, no proper WR list,

Again, thats an issue with this site/the database not skillsrank.

Hell as we speak the timers are still down on the iT servers from the steampipe update afaik.

Well thats their fault for not updating.

I dont see how you can say that skillsrank is extremely flawed based on these points.

Also, why do you care so much about making it cheat proof. There are so few jumpers who can actually get good times and know and trust pretty much all of them + any really good run will have a youtube video anyways. I could see why this would be a concern if there were actually a lot of people doing runs but that just isnt the case.

(they would be the exception, not the standard). Unless mappers can make a way to survive these idk.

And I did not mean specific jumps that utilize health as an element, rather maps like pagoda, tholos, rckteer, rckteer advance, or cheval just to name a few, which utilize managing your health in a run.

Managing health doesnt add much to a run imo (I would say it actually takes away from it) and instead of having per-map rules of whats acceptable and whats not it would just be easier to "allow" rocketjumper, gunboats and !superman on all maps. Also making you survive stuff like that just trough the map is impossible.


People talk about all this speedrun stuff all the time and what could be done to make it better and get more poeple into it and stuff. Nobody ever seems to consider that maybe we dont have so few people doing runs cause all these systems are so "bad", but that the system are so "bad" because not enough people actually care about doing runs. Jumping just doesnt lend itself very well to speedrunning the way surfing and other things do but people still seem to think things would magically get better if we suddenly had the surf timer. The fuck oO
   
Offline  Burger
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Well remember the main reason of this topic in the first place was to discuss the state of speedrunning really (maybe wasn't too clear). And it is a valid point whether the jumper actually might add to skill while making it just less of a pain, I agree long hall ways of no health is just silly. Also perhaps it would work out fine if jump just switched all to infinite health idk unfortunately there is no evidence of such a map that really uses health well (maybe the rckteer's and I can imagine somethings that health could be used in).

And the surftimer, meh its not that great either. Think more similar to kz would be best as in good offline times and demos.

perhaps better functions such as offline times and more legitimization could help grow speedrunning or at least keep the small number of people from quitting it. Although I think quite a few people are into it or at least interested in watching good times (I mean its not any huge amount by any means). Not one thing alone will magically change anything true.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 09:02:22 PM by Burger »
   
Rocketman
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Just throwing this out there: Not going to mention how, but there is a possible exploit with skillsrank to have a non-regen run while having regen activated.  I only know 3 people who know of this, and I'm confident they havn't used it, but the potential is there if it's discovered by another group.

So even with weapon bans and regulations it's possible to have the same effect on stock, currently.
   
Rocketman
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No tears now; only dreams
Okay... regardless if you insist that the problems are server side, the flaws are still in the system as a whole. And I didn't mention the biggest problem of all that half the time the timers aren't even there/don't start or end. This has been a problem for at least a year+, supposedly it worked fine before idk, but it hasn't worked consistently the entire time I've been jumping in tf2. Maybe even this is a server side problem and not a skillsrank problem idk. Given how cleanly made this website is, I doubt it, though it could be related to how slow the players/maps/hiscores database section of the website is. Redwine seems completely absent from this site and tf2 jumping so I feel like it's going to take a new, separate website. The non-functional timers issue just seem completely random, and happens regardless of the map/server/amt of ppl in server/plugins on server. It's happened to every server afaik that uses skillsrank. It'd be interesting to test actually, if the issue persists when using skillsrank that doesn't store web stats.

By your logic all it would take is a different web setup and it'll be fine. Someone would have to look thru the skillsrank code to validate that and make test cases for it. The code is a mess to look at though lol, not too much documentation on what's going on in it. I wonder what tools exist for debugging code while running it on a server... Honestly though there are a lot of unnecessary features in skillsrank that I'd purge if I ever seriously attempt changes.

If you want to look I still have the code Cranck gave out like a year ago, may be outdated:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hrpyzm112au31eq/cskillsrankv3.sp

Edit: that code is like 4k lines long. For one thing it's just bad coding style to put that much code in a single file rather than splitting it up, but I also have a hunch that a lot of it could be made more efficient... There's also functions whose bodies are completely commented out with no documentation as to why (In layman's terms, commented out functions mean they don't do anything).

And I think it is possible to get a system offline, it'll take a mod pretty sure. There's a comparable speedrun system for cs jumping that works offline so it may be possible for tf2. It's still vanilla cs, just starts a timer and demo when at the start of the map and ends them at the end. Cs has it easy though cuz all their maps have timers built into every map (buttons at start and end). Speedrunning offline on the map of your choice seems like such a great thing to have. As it is there's just no standard for it, no way to tell when to start/end the timer. And it'll likely be impossible unless a timing system like skillsrank works offline.

As for making it cheat-proof, if there are exploits I have a hunch ppl will take advantage of it. Like the wonderland lag glitch, I know for a fact people have used it in speedruns. The hook is just an example of a plugin that could possibly be put on sketchy servers which ppl may exploit. The iT/chillout servers are trustworthy, but others? I don't think so... Sure we should be able to tell if a time is cheated, but imo a cheatable system could and should be an avoidable. Cheated times have remained on the hiscores for months, it's pretty clear no one wants to go through it and manually remove them.

Quba idk why ur so pessimistic, I know personally I'm turned off from speedrunning purely by the flawed system in place. If there was an ideal system in place I'm confident there would be a lot more higher caliber jumpers, better times, and overall just more fun competition. The skill ceiling can only go up and up if I've learned one thing from cs jumping. Their WR times even from a few years ago have been smashed by today's jumpers, not to mention their community is still strong (stronger than tf2 jumping), even though the game is like 10+ years old. I agree with burger that the timer should be more like the kz timer not the surf timer.

And stim that sounds pretty neat, though I'm far off from making anything.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 09:37:25 PM by Afterglow »


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Offline  Burger
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well I think it is true that you can not make a timer that connects to a database offline, kz timer does not do this or even the defrag timer cannot do this. However offline times typically work by recording a demo on those and submitted to a database (at least how kz works I think)or some placed to be on display. It could be connected to a database when online I believe (it could function as both?). And perhaps maps could me modified to add offline timers built in the maps (ofc the whole problem with editing other peoples work, not that its changing the structure or anything.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 09:52:32 PM by Burger »
   
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