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Author Topic: Rules/Standards for Speedrunning and ideas for improvments  (Read 2205 times)
Offline  CrancK
Rocketeer
*

ehh... what?
Posts: 397
dude...
you can make a plugin for offline, but either it'll have 2 seperate ways to make it work, so it works local and server side, or you would have to have 2 plugins, 1 for local 1 for serverside

biggest problem for local plugin with sourcemod is that the player hosting it equals the server, which is a hell to make sense of in code. (not even considering cheatproofing since that'd be a whole nother can of worms)

As for skillsrank, afaik from even before steampipe, it worked near flawless in the sense that on chillout it haven't heard any/many complaints about it not working, it will fail every now and then though, however that frequency that i do get reports of things failing, and the type of reports, lead me to think that the connection just timed out.

As for it being cheatable or not, i'm sorry, i can't fix most things other then plugins i make myself, i could've theoretically went out and checked all 400+ plugins on chillout, to see which can make cheats, then find the sourcecode for each and everyone by asking their devs for it, then changing each and everyone around so they work together with skillsrank, but thats just insanity.

As for the bad code, i know :D
It's got a lot of double bits and indeed some commented out stuff, and because when i made it i thought it'd be much better to only upload 1x a map, i made it save all the info into ram until end of map, which is also not really what i shouldve done.

Times in the plugin are per class, so yes they can be ranked seperatly, though i think you already can filter per class?
Or is the problem the idea that your "account" gets points for all classes?

Also, as for the scoring system, im 100% sure that if someone gets all no1 times, he'll be no1
We can use a shitload of different algorythms which all do about the same, the main thing to keep account of is that the db starts empty, and that the runs themselves have to define how hard/easy a map is and t hus how many points get awarded for it, and thus also the diffference between the times is important

thus yes, if you are first, yet 2-50 are only up to 2 seconds slower, then your not gonna get a lot of extra points more then nr 2-50, a bit more, but not much
What could be done to make it more obvious is somehow include the nr of points you have for a map next to your run, however... since this number will change as more runs are included, it's at the very least a challenge to get that nice.


but hey, again... get someone to make it, i've been saying skillsrank sucks for ages, it functions, it does what it needs to do, but its the bare basics.
So go get someone to put in the x amout of hours of designing/making a new plugin and BAMN, no more shit with the current stuff


EDIT: i just read the bit about from afterglow about the cheating,
wonderland bug: if its a command, perhaps a plugin could detect it
Demos: ingame/mods can do NOTHING AT ALL with demos, stupid idea, unless you dont need a plugin in the first place, with demos it'd just be send your demo to the judges,then theyll put your time online if they agree with it.... a plugin is supposed to give automation.... ohwell
Host_timescale: accounting for it near impossible to get right, however you could detect it and then block runs


HOWEVER ANY AND ALL OF THESE CHEATS, can easily be hacked in with any new thingy.... sourcemod.. or hell TF2 as a WHOLE is extremely cheat-prone, even if you use sv_pure 2.

For example, if i make a clientside "hacky" plugin every week, then valve will never detect it, and i could have godmode in any server (or a little less obvious like slow regen or vampiric things so ppl in comp wouldnt notice as much)

SO NO, IT IS NOT POSSIBLE, to make a cheatproof plugin for tf2, if people want to cheat, they are able to, no matter what a pluginmaker/modmaker/dev would do with this game (save for full/large redo of i/o netcode)

basically afterglow,
if you want cheatproof, you need demos.
if you need demos you need people.
not a plugin


Edit2: ohw and kairu, if youd tell me on steam teh regen glitch, i might be able to fix that one


EDIT3: if any admin that has ftp for jumpit could simply ask me for newest version of skillsrank and then get it on there, im pretty sure most problems on it should go away, or at least thats the only thing i can think of since it has been working without many/any hiccups on chillout (and we all know chillout is much more fickle about not working cos of the 400+ plugins)
« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 03:11:45 AM by CrancK »


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Offline  Nightin
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Posts: 74
Point of a speedrun is to get from point A to point B as fast as you can so I really don't understand the complaint about rjer/gunboats on maps without regen. What you can do with those items is possible without them on any other map EXCEPT the ones without regen unlike the sticky jumper that lets you do things that would be otherwise impossible on ANY map, which is an actual issue on some demo speedruns. Problem lies with the maps, not the items(except sjer).

And if this hasn't been asked or said yet, is it possible to have your times be registered BEFORE the server changes map? Too many runs have been lost due to server crashes.
   
Offline  CrancK
Rocketeer
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ehh... what?
Posts: 397
dude...
nope, one of the oversight in my line of thinking of "i only want it to upload once" is that i didn't take into account gamecrashings

plugin uploads on mapchange, and mapchange only, a very early version used to have a manual upload button in there but i think that was before it made the change to multi-server
« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 02:22:23 AM by CrancK »


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Offline  Nightin
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Posts: 74
No way to update the plugin? It doesn't even always upload once. I've got 4 runs i think which are uploaded twice and take up 2 ranks.
   
Offline  CrancK
Rocketeer
*

ehh... what?
Posts: 397
dude...
i can update the plugin, but im not gonna make big changes to it, updating it to have manual upload button would need me to redo the whole upload section i think (not 100% sure) which would be more time then im willing to spend on it.

Also what you mean with 4 runs that are uploaded 2x? like the same time? cos it... shouldnt even be possible for it to display them then, cos they have no unique values then... right? i think anyway... like how else to find specific stuff in db, if theres no unique field... hmmm


sure they are not just very similar?

the plugin can track up to 6 decimals, but will only ever display i think 3 like 0.001 even though itll notice difference between 0.001 and 0.000001

(though only possible to get smaller difference then 0.0152 if teh server tick ticks at a different point in time then it either once before did, or then a nother server does (0.0152 cos 66frames/sec, 66tick servers))
« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 02:38:56 AM by CrancK »


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Offline  Nightin
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Posts: 74
Nope, they aren't different runs. If I got a faster run right now on karb as soldier for example, it would still display 2 runs.
   
Offline  QuBA
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Posts: 134
By your logic all it would take is a different web setup and it'll be fine.

Ye, pretty much.

And I think it is possible to get a system offline, it'll take a mod pretty sure.

If I have to launch a sperate mod and it doesnt work on normal jump server I would never do a speedrun again. That would just alienate more people from it and and remove any new people coming in.
   
Offline  X_DIAS
Rocketman
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Posts: 643
The world is a cube
And perhaps maps could me modified to add offline timers built in the maps (ofc the whole problem with editing other peoples work, not that its changing the structure or anything.

This is soooo wrong.....
then you would have shitload of diferent versions on diferent servers
like what already happens with adventure
   
Offline  QuBA
Soldier
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Posts: 134
Also making you survive stuff like that just trough the map is impossible.

Well fuck apparently its not, looks like torii found a way to do it on azure :D Point still stands though.

Ok so you can just use addouput to directly set playerhealth to anything. In 5 years of jumpmap making no one thought of that :/
« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 07:10:35 AM by QuBA »
   
Offline  Shunix
Soldier
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Posts: 167
Awooooo!
Couldnt we fix this whole cheatable using the jumper weapons thing by forcing the original tf2 buddha(you can lose health but when you go to anything that would kill you instead of dieing you just cant gain any speed from rockets/stickies) to anyone who has the timer on? it wouldnt allow 8 stickies and would stop people dieing from stupid stuff.

alternatively someone could just update all the maps with bad regen to have regen it wouldnt take THAT long... while we are at it we can fix stuff like the redplanet cheat and other stupid things

edit:

By regen i meant trigger_hurtme
« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 07:37:47 AM by Shunix »


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Rocketman
*****

Posts: 518
No tears now; only dreams
stuff

Well there's P-REC which automatically records demos, so I think it should be possible, maybe not upload them automatically/submit to database. The reason I'm stressing it should be cheat-proof is that if the system ever gets redone, it should get redone correctly. The way I was thinking was just use demos for WRs, cuz it'd get rly annoying to watch em all. If there's no demo for a WR submission, it's not valid. Some ppl might be reluctant to reveal their speedrun routes though...

And at quba yea I wasn't rly thinking of a mod, just a local-server plugin.


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Offline  Burger
Maggot
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Posts: 28
And perhaps maps could me modified to add offline timers built in the maps (ofc the whole problem with editing other peoples work, not that its changing the structure or anything.


This is soooo wrong.....
then you would have shitload of diferent versions on diferent servers
like what already happens with adventure


hmm think maybe a misunderstanding here, just simply meant offline timers built into maps, new maps would always add them but old maps would need them built in like kz. And not so sure what you mean by adventure there is just one version I know of? maybe how littleman has a ton of version but those are structural changes. Anyway an offline plugin chances is better anyway.

@afterglow

yea just for WRs I would agree with or if there is anyway a time clearly looks cheated. And about revealing routes well they would not need to make them public if they did not want just to who ever is in charge of reviewing them (best that could be done I think ofc judges will likely end up being runners so idk).

@quba

well this is interesting I thought I had heard that this could do that sometime ago was not sure.

Edit:
Point of a speedrun is to get from point A to point B as fast as you can so I really don't understand the complaint about rjer/gunboats on maps without regen. What you can do with those items is possible without them on any other map EXCEPT the ones without regen unlike the sticky jumper that lets you do things that would be otherwise impossible on ANY map, which is an actual issue on some demo speedruns. Problem lies with the maps, not the items(except sjer).

And if this hasn't been asked or said yet, is it possible to have your times be registered BEFORE the server changes map? Too many runs have been lost due to server crashes.


well I think its get to A to B as fast as you can as whats possible in the map (most maps it does not even matter since they are full health regen or infinite health). And since everyone can get these items fairly easily its really not hugely important if they stay. But I think trying to maintain health in a run can lead to interesting things, all though it is slower for sure its not necessarily worse. For example in wonderland's run of rckteer_adv,
RJ_RCKTEER_ADV SPEEDRUN RECORD
you can see how a lot of his decisions have to change to maintain his health (at one point he hangs on with just 1 health). It is a different style of jump but I think it should be respected.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 12:18:59 PM by Burger »
   
Offline  X_DIAS
Rocketman
***

Posts: 643
The world is a cube
Well there's P-REC which automatically records demos, so I think it should be possible

Never!



@burguer
there are at least 2 maps that are exactly the same, but diferent compiles, called jump_adventure. and if you have one you cannot enter on  a server that has the other

there is also one called adventure_2, wich is exactly the same as the others


.....there is always confusion when you re-compile other maps
   
Offline  Burger
Maggot
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Posts: 28
Oh ok. yea I can understand that recompiling probably would be a huge mess.
   
Offline  Nightin
Fly
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Posts: 74

well I think its get to A to B as fast as you can as whats possible in the map (most maps it does not even matter since they are full health regen or infinite health). And since everyone can get these items fairly easily its really not hugely important if they stay. But I think trying to maintain health in a run can lead to interesting things, all though it is slower for sure its not necessarily worse. For example in wonderland's run of rckteer_adv, RJ_RCKTEER_ADV SPEEDRUN RECORD you can see how a lot of his decisions have to change to maintain his health (at one point he hangs on with just 1 health). It is a different style of jump but I think it should be respected.


I don't think it's worse just because there's more walking involved, I'm just saying that using rjer/gunboats shouldn't be considered cheating. Maps with regen points should definitely have separate categories for vanilla and unlocks though.
   
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