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Author Topic: discussion time  (Read 1539 times)
Offline  Drexen
discussion time
« on: October 24, 2011, 04:37:13 PM »
Rocketeer
***

Posts: 283
I was wondering, (and not for the first time) why not many people jump map. As much as i have thought about this i can't decide why. So tell me, is it because you dont have time? Is it because you think it'll be too difficult? Is it because you have no idea where to start and don't think you'll get manage?

Also to those who do do a bit of mapping, take the soldier mapping contest for example. how come you stopped? did you get bored of it because you just find mapping completely boring? or again, do you not have enough time? or you dont have any jump ideas, or that you think all jumps have been done a thousand times?

To those who havent mapped before. whats stopping you from trying it? if you dont know where to start, idk maybe you want me to make some tutorials, or you can just ask someone who does map (i'd always find time to help). or if mapping just not appealing to you, i don't blame you.

And to those who do map... how come your not making a map now? out of ideas, i don't blame you. dont have enough time? also, not much you can do about that (apart from maybe asking me to help you speed up, or anyone else who does map, maybe you can learn a trick or two. sexydev for example only took me about 10-20 hours total, it really doesnt take long)


so yeah, i guess thats my rant over (if it was a rant). what im trying to say is mapping is easy (seriously, you can easily make a jump map without even needing to go near any technical stuff) and if you dont know where to begin, ask me or anyone else who does map, or maybe you want some tutorials or w/e.
   
Offline  conductor
Re: discussion time
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2011, 06:09:19 PM »
Soldier
*

Posts: 163
Very carefully
I'm pretty sure tf2 jumping isn't that popular because A) it's (for the most part) useless in a real game, and B) can be annoying to learn once you get to harder things and pretty much nobody wants to teach new people
   
Offline  X_DIAS
Re: discussion time
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2011, 06:15:24 PM »
Rocketman
***

Posts: 643
The world is a cube
Well, to me it pretty much comes to 2 things
1st i need to be in a mapping mood/spree
2nd i need time

i started a project for the comp, and it would only take like, 5 more hours to finish, but i didn't really had the time or patience to finish it

i will, eventually
   
Offline  Diddy
Re: discussion time
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2011, 03:26:12 AM »
Rocketeer
****

Posts: 297
I don't see many people who jump because they want to jump, not because they want to be a better soldier.  So I would assume they just get to a level that would be good enough to play comp then stop and never do it again.

Also, I tried mapping.  I stopped after spending like 3 hours trying to fix leaks that I don't even know how they happened.  I didn't have enough ideas for an entire map in the first place either.  It's really not hard to simply make the jumps, it was a little overwhelming at first though.  Took me forever to get them scaled right.


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some people just shouldnt be aloud to have internet accesss
   
Offline  CrancK
Re: discussion time
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2011, 05:34:58 AM »
Rocketeer
*

ehh... what?
Posts: 397
dude...
hmmm, well

i am mapping.. like... every 3 days or so..

but, i never seem to finish maps, because i'll get a new idea for a mod, or map,
and then lose motivation for the previous one, and it thus never gets finished
(think ive got like 6 or 7 unfinished maps by now, and like 8 or 9 seperate jumps laying round, some a bit on the insane side of skill though)

as for jumping... i dunno, maybe it's just never got enough mainstream attention?
or maybe there just aren't enough easy maps? beef, adventure, rush... maybe some of the easy courses on maps that have more then 1, but not many anyway (though i know how hard it is, to make original newbie jumps.. cos like.. theres only so much you can do with 2-3 maybe 4 rockets rocketjumps)

mapping in itself is cool though, as long as i don't have to detail all sorts of things

edit: ohw also, as reply to conductor, i dunno about america (though i think i've seen people help others out there too, bernie especially for  example) on chillout people are generally helped the moment they ask, (provided an admin/someone who knows the jump, is on) though ofcourse some still can't get it even with showing + explanation, but ye.. thats not really something we can do anything about
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 05:38:40 AM by CrancK »


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Offline  Drexen
Re: discussion time
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2011, 07:56:18 AM »
Rocketeer
***

Posts: 283
conductor: like I said, theres no need to get into technical stuff, and i'd happily make tutorials if people would actually benefit from them. also i'm always willing to help anyone who wants to make jump maps (since we always need more)

x_dias: again, im sure if i were to watch you map i could point out ways to speed up

diddy: again im going to use sexydev as an example, but i never have to worry about leaks in it because (although its not always the best way) i cover the map in a sky box. alternatively, theres tools to solve leaks, and simple techniques to solving even complex leaks. i have to agree though, if you go and load up hammer for the first time and try to map without learning from videos/tutorials then of course it will be overwhelming.

cranck: i'm also the same, it takes about 5 different map idea before i get hooked on one and finish it, although i never waste old jumps. the problem with making easy maps is because most of the people who jump (and are admins) are pretty good at it, so they (we) are less likely to play easy maps like rj_rckteer / jump_rush / jump_beef / jump_adventure etc. (and if they do get played, they quickly get rtved)

so what do you think, would jump map specific tutorials help and encourage new mappers? or maybe even some more advanced tutorials to help more experienced people improve? or even maybe some tutorials to help people speed up?
   
Offline  Hadokk
Re: discussion time
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2011, 10:03:21 AM »
Rocketeer
****

Bball Server Filler Upper
Posts: 313
Okay
The stuff that made me stop mapping whenever I had started making a map was technical stuff. Some of the jumps that I was psyched about creating were either too hard or impossible to do. I just lacked the motivation to continue most of the time when my awesome jump ideas got pooped on by sdk limits. So I either had to compromise the jump too much or giving it up completely.

I never disliked mapping though, I only think it's too easy to hit dead ends.

   
Offline  wonderland
Re: discussion time
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2011, 07:47:08 PM »
Soldier
***

m3thskiLL
Posts: 185
hmm thats a good question. Personally I think I never made a map because im a perfectionist. So I didnt even want to try. I dont know how to use hammer (well, not very good). I did have some ideas, mostly a jump map with bball. The plan was to make a map with 2 bball courts that would count score individually (on a scoreboard or something), and have a jump map section so you could play when you wait for ppl, or if you just wanted to jump, or spectate/chill, or run around. and then put it 24/7 on a ~12 slot server. I think it got dropped cause I couldnt figure out how to do the bball courts with respawns and scores properly, and I needed someone to help with hammer. I did talk to cownaetion but ya in the end didnt get shit done.

I think if I started playing again I would make a map.
   
Offline  Applejacks
Re: discussion time
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2011, 08:20:54 PM »
Maggot
*

Posts: 49
1) There are few original jumps left to make so people feel like they're just playing the same thing all the time.
2) The original jumps are usually the harder ones, leaving nothing for the newbies to do.
3) Speaking for Australia, most of the top jumpers don't jump much anymore so the newbies have no one to look up to.
4) As someone else pointed out, there are people who jump only to the point where it's actually useful in comp.


Personally I would like to throw a hand at mapping. I have some pretty good ideas for demoman but they also aren't suitable for beginner/moderate jumpers.


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Offline  Raiin
Re: discussion time
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2011, 09:06:57 PM »
Soldier
*

Kangaroo-izzle
Posts: 243
Apparently, I'm a robot.
For me it's mostly motivation, or perhaps just procrastination, I could pump out a map every other week but I don't because after about 30 mins I'm feeling bored or it's like repeating the same step over and over with a different texture.

I didn't work on the soldier competition because jump_klanana was just released and really at that point making another map with the same amount of jumps just seemed like I would just be creating more of the same. Also making a fun map to me is making the jumps short and sweet without too much repetition. Pogoing around obstacles 1 jump and then pogoing up hill for instance just feels the same to me because in the end I'm just pogoing a path.

Jumping and competitive play have very little overlap, so it seems easier to compare it to surfing in that aspect (Not practical in a game but people play it because they like it). I always look forward to the times I get to use a speedshot or a pogo or a skip in a scrim and each time I used 1 of these skills it was a better choice than not doing so.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 09:10:04 PM by Raiin »


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http://www.youtube.com/user/RaiinTF2
   
Offline  X_DIAS
Re: discussion time
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2011, 04:39:06 AM »
Rocketman
***

Posts: 643
The world is a cube
Quote from: Drexen on October 25, 2011, 07:56:18 AM

x_dias: again, im sure if i were to watch you map i could point out ways to speed up

so what do you think, would jump map specific tutorials help and encourage new mappers? or maybe even some more advanced tutorials to help more experienced people improve? or even maybe some tutorials to help people speed up?

Well, not for this map thx, all that is left to do (i got 17 jumps i think), is make a few more and copy-paste the environment and adapt it to the jump

But a tutorial on how to speed up mapping would be nice :)
   
Offline  Just Tommy
Re: discussion time
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2011, 08:08:29 AM »
Fly
**

Engie Jump Expert
Posts: 51
I would like an indepth on mapping, only once was I able to get hammer to start for TF2 and that one time was just confusing as hell.


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I like my coffee black, just like my metal.
   
Offline  Wolsk
Re: discussion time
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2011, 04:26:45 AM »
Rocketeer
****

Posts: 301
i love you
1) For me, mapping takes a long time.
2) It feels like not many creative jumps can still be made.
3) I never have the motivation to finish.
4) I almost never have the time for it.
5) I haven't had very much teaching, so I get lost at times.
6) Getting last in the Demo competition was rather heart-breaking.

Drexen, if you could, please make some tutorial videos.
I know enough to make simple stuff, but I'm no where near being good.

*EDIT* I just saw that you already made tutorials.
WELP, off to go watch them.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 05:00:24 AM by Wolsk »


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klanana:  I DID NOT EAT THE CAT
dellort: This mod is pretty cool, just wish the devs would fix the bug that allows MIKE to play on it.
   
Online  MIKE`
Re: discussion time
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2011, 11:09:00 PM »
Fly
**

Posts: 60
i made one map that practically no one liked as far as i know. i definitely wouldn't make another just because i really don't enjoy trying to make it look nice, which is why i gave the map to someone else to texture.

i feel like there's not much room to push jumping forward. original ideas almost always seem to be the jumps people hate the most. at this point they're they're generally really obnoxious and semi-luck based, or extremely hard, to the point where it still feels luck based.

aside originality, all you can do is remake whats already been done and hope you do it better than the last guy and i think most people don't want to remake more of the same if they're going to make a map (even though this is ok imo!)

i think a lot of it comes down to jumping not having a large enough community. since i've stopped jumping the past month or two, i've been surfing some in css since there's a lot more maps than there is in tf2. the concepts are basically the same in each map and there's only so much originality, but they're all still enjoyable if the map is well-made. difference is, the surfing community is huge compared to jumping - there's generally at least one new map every two weeks.
   
Offline  Wolsk
Re: discussion time
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2011, 11:22:15 PM »
Rocketeer
****

Posts: 301
i love you
Quote from: MIKE` on November 01, 2011, 11:09:00 PM
i made one map that practically no one liked as far as i know. i definitely wouldn't make another just because i really don't enjoy trying to make it look nice, which is why i gave the map to someone else to texture.

i feel like there's not much room to push jumping forward. original ideas almost always seem to be the jumps people hate the most. at this point they're they're generally really obnoxious and semi-luck based, or extremely hard, to the point where it still feels luck based.

aside originality, all you can do is remake whats already been done and hope you do it better than the last guy and i think most people don't want to remake more of the same if they're going to make a map (even though this is ok imo!)
I remember this discussion, MIKE. :P


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klanana:  I DID NOT EAT THE CAT
dellort: This mod is pretty cool, just wish the devs would fix the bug that allows MIKE to play on it.
   
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