Messages

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General Discussion / Re: How long have you been jumping for?

« on: July 18, 2013, 09:06:46 PM »

sometime in 2008 so about 5 years and started in tf2

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General Discussion / Re: Rules/Standards for Speedrunning and ideas for improvments

« on: July 16, 2013, 12:42:18 PM »

KSF timer I think is something to strive for in terms of the point system and its other interesting feature such as player name ranking, wr, pr, etc. It just makes things more entertaining. Though there is no offline timing system (I think) for surf, I think that its important that there is consistency with the server and offline times for jump or in any skill game really (its just nice to have a long time to try for records with no interruptions).  Even if offline times are separate from the point system and database it would be good just for data, but perhaps a team of people could be responsible for manually adding times to a database among other tasks (demo review, removing cheated times, etc).

About latency though, would that matter much as long as people did times in their region? (ofc offline would fix that anyway).

But there are a few great timers out there to follow after, kz, defrag and ksf (ones Ive had good experiences with). kz and defrag are both pretty simple timer systems in that they have no point systems, the rankings on the maps alone are enough to improve with and ofc beating your own times. kz Ive had little experience with however I think the defrag timer is great.

So I think a solid timer would be offline times (like in kz and defrag), a good point and ranking system (like in ksf), and a global online database across any server that chooses to partake in the system (like in kz, defrag and how tf2 jump is now). There are some features to be learned from in all of the timers. ksf for sure has an entertaining and addictive system.

@cranck

yea autorecord some people I guess just hate a clock on their screen I guess? I'm not quite sure how this would be handled I think a /norun or /practice command would help a lot. But hopefully with a better system people would enjoy speedrunning more, also more beginner and intermediate maps would help with this (I mean I don't even want to speedrun something like scorpion).

Also maybe we could start some kind of donations to hire someone to work on a timer system, idk who are some big names in the tf2 modding community? the guy who made parkour fortress had decent timer for that, but best would be someone closer to the jump community.

Another option just overhaul skillsrank, it seems skillsrank  and our database were on a good track (almost feels incomplete, chances this wont happen).

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General Discussion / Re: Rules/Standards for Speedrunning and ideas for improvments

« on: July 15, 2013, 04:58:46 PM »

Well it certainly will not grow if no one tries to make things better, it won't grow with current systems in place in fact it will likely shrink. On another note a few thousand jumpers, a few hundred good jumpers and a handful of gods is not bad for a niche in a game (so we can at least make things better for them). Also tf2 has what? like 100k active players at least so at least give them something to enjoy seeing rocket jumping taken to a new level. As a defrag player there is maybe only a few hundred defragers, and also only a handful of godly players. While the player base is certainly not growing the skill level still continues to and is likely not to die soon. Tf2 jump on the other hand seems to be losing interest of the better jumpers if anything, a lot having to do with the systems we have in place now.

I don't think we need all the negativity and pessimism, we could all agree tf2jump could be better than it is (there is always room for improvement). Remember the idea of the thread here was to just get some ideas to make speed running better for speed runners and to help legitimize runs. If we can do that then the skill level will grow for sure and maybe bring in some more players, cant complain about that  . Anyway seems most things have been debated out feel free to add more (opinions on rules and improvements, stay on topic!).

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General Discussion / Re: Rules/Standards for Speedrunning and ideas for improvments

« on: July 13, 2013, 04:42:42 PM »

well I think its get to A to B as fast as you can as whats possible in the map (most maps it does not even matter since they are full health regen or infinite health). And since everyone can get these items fairly easily its really not hugely important if they stay. But I think trying to maintain health in a run can lead to interesting things, all though it is slower for sure its not necessarily worse. For example in wonderland's run of rckteer_adv, RJ_RCKTEER_ADV SPEEDRUN RECORD you can see how a lot of his decisions have to change to maintain his health (at one point he hangs on with just 1 health). It is a different style of jump but I think it should be respected.

I don't think it's worse just because there's more walking involved, I'm just saying that using rjer/gunboats shouldn't be considered cheating. Maps with regen points should definitely have separate categories for vanilla and unlocks though.

Yes for sure there should be some way to tell if it was vanilla or not if anything.

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General Discussion / Re: Rules/Standards for Speedrunning and ideas for improvments

« on: July 13, 2013, 12:20:36 PM »

Oh ok. yea I can understand that recompiling probably would be a huge mess.

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General Discussion / Re: Rules/Standards for Speedrunning and ideas for improvments

« on: July 13, 2013, 11:50:13 AM »

And perhaps maps could me modified to add offline timers built in the maps (ofc the whole problem with editing other peoples work, not that its changing the structure or anything.

This is soooo wrong.....
then you would have shitload of diferent versions on diferent servers
like what already happens with adventure

hmm think maybe a misunderstanding here, just simply meant offline timers built into maps, new maps would always add them but old maps would need them built in like kz. And not so sure what you mean by adventure there is just one version I know of? maybe how littleman has a ton of version but those are structural changes. Anyway an offline plugin chances is better anyway.

@afterglow

yea just for WRs I would agree with or if there is anyway a time clearly looks cheated. And about revealing routes well they would not need to make them public if they did not want just to who ever is in charge of reviewing them (best that could be done I think ofc judges will likely end up being runners so idk).

@quba

well this is interesting I thought I had heard that this could do that sometime ago was not sure.

Edit:

Point of a speedrun is to get from point A to point B as fast as you can so I really don't understand the complaint about rjer/gunboats on maps without regen. What you can do with those items is possible without them on any other map EXCEPT the ones without regen unlike the sticky jumper that lets you do things that would be otherwise impossible on ANY map, which is an actual issue on some demo speedruns. Problem lies with the maps, not the items(except sjer).

And if this hasn't been asked or said yet, is it possible to have your times be registered BEFORE the server changes map? Too many runs have been lost due to server crashes.

well I think its get to A to B as fast as you can as whats possible in the map (most maps it does not even matter since they are full health regen or infinite health). And since everyone can get these items fairly easily its really not hugely important if they stay. But I think trying to maintain health in a run can lead to interesting things, all though it is slower for sure its not necessarily worse. For example in wonderland's run of rckteer_adv,

RJ_RCKTEER_ADV SPEEDRUN RECORD

you can see how a lot of his decisions have to change to maintain his health (at one point he hangs on with just 1 health). It is a different style of jump but I think it should be respected.

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General Discussion / Re: Rules/Standards for Speedrunning and ideas for improvments

« on: July 12, 2013, 09:49:23 PM »

well I think it is true that you can not make a timer that connects to a database offline, kz timer does not do this or even the defrag timer cannot do this. However offline times typically work by recording a demo on those and submitted to a database (at least how kz works I think)or some placed to be on display. It could be connected to a database when online I believe (it could function as both?). And perhaps maps could me modified to add offline timers built in the maps (ofc the whole problem with editing other peoples work, not that its changing the structure or anything.

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General Discussion / Re: Rules/Standards for Speedrunning and ideas for improvments

« on: July 12, 2013, 08:56:28 PM »

Well remember the main reason of this topic in the first place was to discuss the state of speedrunning really (maybe wasn't too clear). And it is a valid point whether the jumper actually might add to skill while making it just less of a pain, I agree long hall ways of no health is just silly. Also perhaps it would work out fine if jump just switched all to infinite health idk unfortunately there is no evidence of such a map that really uses health well (maybe the rckteer's and I can imagine somethings that health could be used in).

And the surftimer, meh its not that great either. Think more similar to kz would be best as in good offline times and demos.

perhaps better functions such as offline times and more legitimization could help grow speedrunning or at least keep the small number of people from quitting it. Although I think quite a few people are into it or at least interested in watching good times (I mean its not any huge amount by any means). Not one thing alone will magically change anything true.

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General Discussion / Re: Rules/Standards for Speedrunning and ideas for improvments

« on: July 12, 2013, 07:40:10 PM »

Vanilla doesnt work cause of water triples and quints, so no that cant be the standard.

And except for rj_training no maps have jumps where limited health is actually part of the jump, so the "how maps were intended" thing doesnt apply either.

pagoda/tholos are examples of maps where health regen matters. There are a few others as well, including some demo maps. But yea you're right, some maps like facility (the quint) need hurtme.

As of now I think skillsrank is fine since it seems to work flawlessly.

Idk what would make you say that but imo it's EXTREMELY flawed. Allowing sticky jumper on maps, some weird point system that simply rewards the person who accumulates the most "decent" (top 10 as opposed to #1) speedruns, only available on servers (no offline), excluding portions of the world (atm players like momiko, onakin, torii, combustion, lambda, skeleton are all excluded unless they want to try with a ton of lag), cheatable times via hook and the wonderland lag glitch, throwing together demo/sol runs even though they should be separated, no proper WR list, etc etc. Hell as we speak the timers are still down on the iT servers from the steampipe update afaik.

We just need a completely new speedrun system or a complete overhaul of skillsrank imo, one that works offline and can be spread globally. It also must be cheat-proof, like accounting for host_timescale. And imo the only way to make it completely legit is to require demos otherwise there still may be cases of the wonderland lag glitch or some other new cheats, unless that's somehow detectable. Making it cheat-proof, making it global, and making it offline compatible are the three biggest things that need to be done imo. This would likely requires knowledge of modding and web developing. I'm currently learning web development (javascript and node.js) so it's possible I could work on a new online database, but it's going to be like a month at least before I think I can do it. Hell it'll be a nice programming project at least, if I can accumulate enough web dev knowledge to get there.

Alright, flawlessly was a bit of a strong word, I was referring to how the timer its self works and it does its job of timing players starting and ending in the same place for everyone (remember before it would often not record times at all). And I suppose "skillsrank" is the timer while the database it uses are different (could be wrong on this). The database though it is flawed for sure and offline, global, and cheat proofing is the way to go for sure.

About excluding other regions I think punipuni (jp server) does support the database and jump it that's on them. (anyway hardly important it would be great to have it redone). And thanks for showing interest in creating something   

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General Discussion / Re: Rules/Standards for Speedrunning and ideas for improvments

« on: July 12, 2013, 07:28:42 PM »

Vanilla doesnt work cause of water triples and quints, so no that cant be the standard.

And except for rj_training no maps have jumps where limited health is actually part of the jump, so the "how maps were intended" thing doesnt apply either.

Thank you for bringing this up, meant to put this in here. For maps that require water triples and quint or in other words that need an item to survive these items would need to be allowed (they would be the exception, not the standard). Unless mappers can make a way to survive these idk.

And I did not mean specific jumps that utilize health as an element, rather maps like pagoda, tholos, rckteer, rckteer advance, or cheval just to name a few, which utilize managing your health in a run. Also for the future who knows when someone might want to use health as a factor in a single jump or make a map that routing depends on health. The rocket jumper being allowed for all takes away from this, mappers can make a map where health regenerates already (maybe if someone wants to get permission and edit other maps to have health or ammo regen that would be good).

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General Discussion / Re: Rules/Standards for Speedrunning and ideas for improvments

« on: July 12, 2013, 01:37:40 PM »

ofc original 

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General Discussion / Rules/Standards for Speedrunning and ideas for improvments

« on: July 12, 2013, 01:16:13 PM »

In another topic in the videos section a speedrun of rj_rckteer was posted and prompted the question if it was a WR of the map. The video I think prompted a good debate over the state of speedrunning on jump maps. As of now it has been somewhat anything goes including any items that valve throws at us is valid for a run. There is also offline times that are basically, start timer on vegas the frame you fire your first rocket and then online times (most likely better since its always the same) where the timer is always the same for each player.


Timers:

As of now I think skillsrank is fine since it seems to work flawlessly. However ideally I think a timer with more open space (think new version of skillsrank lets mapper set these), a way to make offline times consistent, and (very optional) auto demo record.

Rules:

From what I can tell the rules now are just a free for all and somewhat of a mess, save for a few weapons (sticky jumper, caber, etc) everything is allowed. The main thing I'm getting at should vanilla be the standard of speedruns? especially for the soldier where we have the rocket jumper, gunboats and equalizer (I know such a small difference).

IMO it should be vanilla since it respects how the maps were intended, it adds the possibilities of health jumps, and most importantly mappers can choose if you have infinite health or not (it really only effects a handful of maps).

Lastly it might be nice to have demos to backup each WR run for proof and its just nice to have.

Database:

I feel the current database we have is very clunky. We have like 4 or 5 different modes (regen, no regen, bhop for each class, quad, etc) and most of them never even get used. I think conc and quad are fine since its like different classes, but others may just be needless.

Conclusion:

Jumping in tf2 has come a far way now and I think it still has room to grow. Making records more legit and with more standards I think could help create a stronger speed running community. Other games like kz, defrag or ksf surf have great systems for speed running. TF2 speed runs are likely fine how they are now but there is a lot it could improve on.

Well most of this is very much my opinion so don't take any of this as "the word". What are other jumpers/speedrunners thoughts on this? is it fine how everything is? could it be improved? (try to ignore whats in place now).

Think that covers everything, probably some horrible grammar in there  feel free to add to anything

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General Discussion / Re: Jump map difficulty ranking

« on: July 11, 2013, 07:39:04 PM »

Only thing I notice, I think soar and aviator (including bonuses) should be in pro if littleman_v4 w/ bonuses is there. At least personally those maps give me much more trouble.

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Jump Videos / Re: Rj_rckteer 1:20,013 secs WR?

« on: July 11, 2013, 07:30:48 PM »

Yea think 1:3x.x is about right, but hey even wonderland uses the jumper (it is kind of forced to beat times on just a few maps unfortunately). Maybe with a perfect frame per frame run you could do it close to 1:22 at least.

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Jump Videos / Re: Rj_rckteer 1:20,013 secs WR?

« on: July 11, 2013, 01:59:17 PM »

ok after testing it some no way under 1:22 is possible on vanilla just too many spots where you have to stop jumping and walk to get health (believe the top 3 times are rocket jumper times, mine included). On another note maintaining hp actually made the run more interesting for me. It would be nice if there was a blacklist of certain weapons (rocketjumper, gunboats, equlizer, etc) or at least some way to show times that were done vanilla. Well this thread seems to be getting off track a bit now